Overwintering indoors with a big light

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Rufledt
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Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

Hi everyone,

This year I'm starting my grow light right away in the fall. It's a 400 watt metal-halide low bay light. If you've seen the thread with Steve's light, it's exactly like that only with a wider bell. I tried to get a picture:

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It's hard to get a shot when the light is on, the camera always adjusts for the brightness, but you kinda get the point. I also made some big reflectors out of cardboard and white printer paper. I read that white paper reflects more light that foil, and diffuses the light so there aren't any hot spots that can burn leaves. I currently only have 3 plants under it right now- bambusa multiplex, pleioblastus viridistriatus, and japonica "akebonosuji":

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They are on top of some plastic bins holding some water to raise the humidity a bit. I'm kindof lucky with the humidity thing, I don't have forced air so it doesn't get as dry here as it did in the apartment I lived at before I moved here. As you can see there is plenty of space on the ground for some more. Some internet sources say I should run the light 16-18 hours a day at a distance of only a couple feet from the plants, but last year with the light almost as high as the picture there I still had leaves burning. I suppose the tops of that japonica plant are only about 2 feet from the light, but 14 hours of light seems to be enough- all 3 plants have started taking off in the last couple weeks. the multiplex has accelerated in growth to the point that pretty much every single culm is putting out new leaves on all living branches, and new shoots have started even when the last couple haven't fully leaved out yet. These are more shade tolerant, so i'm assuming they don't need as much light as lettuce or something.

I have seen some leaf changes with plants under this light, though. My viridistriatus looks like this:

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The new leaves and the leaves that grew when the plant was outside look like the traditional viridistriatus leaves with lime green and dark green stripes, but under this light they lose all of their lime green and become dark, almost like pl. pygmaeus, and they stay dark green when moved outdoors for the summer. Only new leaves that grow when the plant is outside look like normal viridistriatus leaves, until they go back under this light. Is it something to do with the spectrum or amount of light? I suspect they get less light under the sun because of all the shade in the backyard, but I also know metal halide lights have a different spectrum.

Some of the japonica "akebonosuji" leaves are still variegated:

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Those 2 almost white leaves grew after I put the plant under this light, but other new leaves on taller, unvariegated culms are all green like normal japonica. Speaking of the non-variegated leaves, they got a weird blotchy look after being placed under the light:

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I've seen this on other newly planted bamboos outside, but after the plant acclimated to the new location they went away.

The multiplex tends to get some weird patterns on the leaves, too:

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It first arrived with a few leaves like that, and it grows that way on maybe a quarter of the leaves regardless of conditions. Here's a leaf forming like that:

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Does anybody else's do that, or is it just mine?

Has anyone tried growing any tropical or at least warmer climate plants in cold climates using a grow light like this for winter? I guess bambusa multiplex counts, but that also seems to be a fairly common indoor bamboo and I'm looking for more of a challenge. Any suggestions? I've seen some cool looking tropical/less cold hardy plants that I wouldn't mind adding to my collection. Most of my plants need a winter hibernation so they are outdoors all year, and I figure since I can bring potted plants inside and put them under this light during the cold months I can try whatever I want. Some of the Chusqueas have some interesting characteristics, and someone on here had a post about growing Qiongzhuea tumidissinoda in a pot with plenty of light. Is something like that doable with this set up?

My other option is to focus on trying to get the Japonica as large as possible using this light. It's already adding leaves on all the culms and the rhysomes have reached the edge of the pot. It was a 1 gallon division I got about a month ago, and running the math the clay pot comes out to 5 gallons, so It should have plenty of root space for growth. Either plan is fine for me, I just like the idea of getting more plants because, well, I probably don't have to explain that :wink:

Also is there any way I should improve my set up? I've read oscillating fans help prevent limpness, but I'll have to secure the paper reflectors a bit first. Last winter the bamboos grown under this light didn't develop abnormally with no fans, but the vegetables did. I'm not going to start the vegetables for a few months, though, so I have some time to work that out.
stevelau1911
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by stevelau1911 »

If these are indeed species that don't need that much of a vernalization, then I believe a small humidifier, or pans of water may help to prevent leaves from frying if that happens to be a problem. My shelter logic greenhouse is almost always above 80% humidity, and leaves don't fry even when it gets into the 110s which does happen in October. It should still manage to have some days over 80F through November, but that humidity is created by the 700 gallon thermal mass made with 55 gallon barrels.

I would suggest having some outdoors, and some indoors. From my experience, only certain species such as a moso seedling that is young enough can be grown faster with indoor pampering, and most would have a setback by being indoors.

My q tumidissinoda is getting over-wintered in a pot buried into the ground with a layer of decomposing leaf mulch over it, and will get a tarps in a few weeks when the real threat comes. Decomposing leaf mulch is surprisingly effective when there is enough of it since it gives off heat through the entire winter if there is enough of it to promote bacterial activity.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

I remember your greenhouse, it's amazing how warm and moist it was in there compared to outside. I guess that's the benefit of all that water!

I didn't take a clear picture of it but my plants are sitting on tupperware bins with water in them. I either have the pots sitting on the edges of the bins or suspended above the water on something so they don't sit in the water. I'm also misting them with water. I do have an extra humidifier laying around, maybe I'll see if that helps. I haven't had any drying out yet, but a little more moisture can't hurt. I think it oscillates and blows, too, so maybe it could double as a fan.

I think we had similar ideas about having some inside and some outside, I have 2 japonicas outside that I'm going to tarp with a bunch of other plants, but I don't have 2 multiplexes or 2 viridistriatuses (what is plural for that anyway?)

For vernalization I'll probably put them outside in the late winter/early spring after the worst of the cold weather has passed. Hopefully that will be enough. I heard japonica doesn't need much hibernation compared to phyllostachys, but I guess I'll find out soon if that's true. That'll likely be when I start veggie seedlings anyway so it'll be nice to have the extra space under the light.

Speaking of leaf mulch, just today I was mounding mulched leaves over a lot of my planting beds. i didn't know it produced warmth, I just thought they would insulate and improve the soil. Some heat would be a bonus!

I've heard the same thing about plants preferring natural conditions, I'm just trying to see if I can grow different things under this light. All of the plants are put outside during warmer months.
stevelau1911
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by stevelau1911 »

Perhaps an air tight dome may keep humidity higher, but if the leaves aren't burning up, it should be fine. 400 watts is definitely strong enough. If you were to go all the way up to the ceiling, then a 1000 watt may be necessary, but 400 watts is no more than $15 per month even if you run it a lot. I never ran mine any more than 5 hours per day since I could always have plants close enough to the windows to get supplemental light.

I'm a bit surprised at how it can be in the 40s outside with sunshine outdoors, and then it can literally jump into the 80s and feel hot inside the GH, but just about half the floor space is taken up by water barrels.

You can usually get leaf mulch from your local recycling center. Just enter in leaf mulch recycling in a search engine for your city, and the partially decomposed stuff sitting together is usually the stuff that gives off the most heat since they mix in in with a lot of other stuff such as wood, and soil. Heat doesn't escape that easily, especially if it is constant and gradual with a tarp that is snowed over through the whole winter.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

sealing them in better would probably help a lot. i don't even have reflectors keeping all of the light in, probably 10% escapes. I put my humidifier in there already. The air coming out makes the leaves move slightly, but probably not enough to really toughen up seedlings so i'll have to find another way to do that.

i had an idea for that, I read online somewhere that a few hours of fan a few times a week should be sufficient- what if I took the future seedlings out of the grow box and had the fan going on them over night, then put them back under the light when it was on? the only problem would be timing it so I don't leave them out of the light. I have time to figure that out, i'm only growing bamboo under it for now.

Today I noticed the newest multiplex shoot is bigger around at the base than any existing culm. Good news indeed:

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This plant was also recently up potted. It wasn't root bound, but i'm sure it likes all of the new soil.

My neighbor was saying that leaf mulch is available around here by one of the local air ports. I'll have to look into that.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

good news/bad news- the humidifier keeps the air inside the reflectors around 60-70% relative humidity, but at the rate it's going through water I'll have to refill it every day. I'll check the humidity again after it runs out of water to see what the bins full of water do on their own. I suppose i'll check what the humidity is elsewhere in the house too, might as well be as science-y as possible.

The temps in this part of the house (basement) vary from upper 60's to around 80 due to the unique (read: stupid) way the heat is designed in this house. the 1st floor and basement are on the same thermostat, located on the 1st floor. The basement holds all of its heat, the 1st floor doesn't as much because of windows and whatever. It's a fairly new house, but the 1st floor still cools off first. Then, the thermostat kicks on below 70 degrees (at which point the basement is still, like, 75), and the furnace turns on, pumping hot water first through the pipes -get this- in the basement, which warms up faster than the 1st floor, until the 1st floor heats up and the furnace shuts off.

I even considered trying to plant japonica along the foundation outside my house. I'd have to tarp the above ground growth so it didn't fry every winter, but I bet the heat from the foundation would keep the roots from freezing!
stevelau1911
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by stevelau1911 »

If you have the time, and resources to do so, you could probably create an attached greenhouse or sun room sort of what Brad has which can contain super tall bananas, and have a strong light hanging inside of it to help supplement the lighting while the sun is much less intense in the winter months. For 1 guy to build, it sounds like a process that may take around 400 hours for the construction itself, and over $2000 for materials, so maybe not this winter. It's just a crazy idea I'm throwing out there.

One idea which may be a lot of initial cost and work is to set up a bunch of solar panels on the roof to collect solar energy that can go into some batteries which can feed the light set up in the basement. The major concerns with that is the longevity of the panels, battery, availability of sunlight, and voltage issues, but if it works, it could be pretty awesome.

Just to show what I do for indoor plants, here are some pictures. My primary goal is to keep them alive, and relatively strong by having them by the windows, and would only use artificial lighting or heat pads when it becomes absolutely necessary to carry them through until spring.
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Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

That sounds like an amazing idea, but I don't have the space. The southern facing side of my house looks like this:

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I couldn't actually find a good picture, that's from when we were looking for houses. there is already a wonderful deck there, but there's a roof on it. We don't even get sun because right outside of the overhang is a big maple tree. The only place that gets sufficient sun is along the ground under the deck, and that's where I put the spectabilis and parvifolia in a raised box. I have a few areas of the yard that get more sun, but only spaces large enough for single plants (where I put other phyllostachys, generally, and fruits/veggies). If the roof of the deck was glass or at least had some sky lights and if the deck was enclosed with glass, it would be a pretty nice greenhouse, but the previous owners build this thing right before we moved in so it's all nice and new. I don't really feel like hacking it full of holes for light just yet. We don't plan on staying here forever, though, since it's somewhat small and our ever growing family will need rooms, so in a few years we will probably start looking for another place. I don't know what my wife will be looking for, but I'll be looking for a much bigger garage and lots of space for plants. :wink:

The humidifier has been running for about a day now, and still has some water left. Not enough to make another day I bet, but probably enough to make it to tomorrow morning. The humidity is staying above 60% in there and that is without me misting in there the last couple days, still low 70's F. Like I explained before, as weather cools off outside, the basement will warm up. I expect it will begin drying out as weather cools off, I guess I'll have to see what happens. Last year i didn't have the humidifier or a hygrometer in there and I still didn't have anything drying out. I didn't have the pans of water either, though I did mist frequently (twice a day usually). I think I did end up under watering a few plants, specifically a pleioblastus pygmaeus because of the planter it was in, but all ended up with significant upsize by the end of the winter.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

Humidifier ran out after around 40 hours. 8 hours later, the hygrometer still said 60% humidity. I'm not sure the hygrometer works. I know the humidifier is working. Maybe i have the hygrometer in the wrong place, or maybe a $3 combination thermometer and hygrometer of unknown age isn't the best tool for measuring anything...

Today I found this in the Japonica:

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And another!

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These had just touched the edge of the pot maybe a week ago, now they are 3" longer. A couple new branches started growing, too.

Speaking of new branches, here's the Multiplex:

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LOTS of new branches out of that 1 node. That culm is very arched. when it was nearly done shooting, the pot got tipped over in a storm (it was outside at the time) and bent the culm way over. When I picked the pot back up, the culm never straightened back up. It's kindof lucky, the culm is long enough that if I straightened it, it would touch the bulb and definitely get roasted. I'm probably going to have to top the new shoots, or else the light itself will top them by burning them.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

Found 2 more rhysomes hitting the edge of the pot on the japonica. No pics because they look just like the other ones. The other ones are an inch longer now, too. This thing is growing like mad.

The Multiplex is probably unrolling a leaf or 2 a day on average, and the top of another shoot is just now poking out of the dirt. Something tells me I have everything set up pretty good now.

Random question: Is there anything out there to water the plants automatically? I'm going to be gone for the end of December and half of January and my options are automatic watering somehow or ask my 75 year old neighbor who just got home from having double knee surgery to come water them every couple days. He's a master gardener so i'm pretty sure he could handle the plants, but the stairs might be another story.
Tarzanus
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Tarzanus »

I know that someone from around here somewhere started a project on idiegogo. Found the link https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dais ... t-watering.
I'm not sure if it's ready an if it works, but I'll have to get one of these when the project is complete. Perhaps there's something similar that can be bought in your garden center.
Nicholas
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Nicholas »

Tarzanus wrote:I know that someone from around here somewhere started a project on idiegogo. Found the link https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dais ... t-watering.
I'm not sure if it's ready an if it works, but I'll have to get one of these when the project is complete. Perhaps there's something similar that can be bought in your garden center.
I've used this system in the past (http://www.blumat.com/en/)
Hard water can clog up the valves and with age the valves can become unreliable but its advantage is that there is no electronics involved.

I still use the Bottle adapters from time to time ( http://www.blumat.com/en/blumat-univers ... apter.html) and if you are handy with clay and have somewhere to get it fired it is a really effective way of building such water dispensing units.The only downside is that they do not look pretty.

Unglazed ceramics can transport water and you just have to make sure the ceramic cap makes a good seal with the plastic bottle. Cut a little hole in the bottom of the bottle to fill it up and prevent a vacuum from forming. On one of my chili plants I used a 2L plastic bottle with such a cap for well over a year and when I re-potted it the roots had formed an incredibly thick patch around the ceramic cone.
Rufledt wrote:
Random question: Is there anything out there to water the plants automatically? I'm going to be gone for the end of December and half of January and my options are automatic watering somehow or ask my 75 year old neighbor who just got home from having double knee surgery to come water them every couple days. He's a master gardener so i'm pretty sure he could handle the plants, but the stairs might be another story.
A word of advice on automatic watering. If it is indoors you should always consider what happens in case of a system failure.
Unless you can ensure that a catastrophic water leak can drain off never attach an automatic watering system to your tap or other large source of water.

There are systems like the one I mentioned above that can also work with a reservoir (e.g. a bucket you fill regularly) so you know the maximum amount of water
that can possibly spill. Accordingly you can place your plants into a tray that holds more water than your reservoir and have confidence that you won't come home to a ruined floor or worse.
Rufledt
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Rufledt »

Tarzanus wrote:I know that someone from around here somewhere started a project on idiegogo. Found the link https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dais ... t-watering.
I'm not sure if it's ready an if it works, but I'll have to get one of these when the project is complete. Perhaps there's something similar that can be bought in your garden center.
That thing looks really cool! I couldn't find any for sale so it must not be in production yet, but i'll definitely look into that when it gets released.
Nicholas wrote: I've used this system in the past (http://www.blumat.com/en/)
Hard water can clog up the valves and with age the valves can become unreliable but its advantage is that there is no electronics involved.

I still use the Bottle adapters from time to time ( http://www.blumat.com/en/blumat-univers ... apter.html) and if you are handy with clay and have somewhere to get it fired it is a really effective way of building such water dispensing units.The only downside is that they do not look pretty.

Unglazed ceramics can transport water and you just have to make sure the ceramic cap makes a good seal with the plastic bottle. Cut a little hole in the bottom of the bottle to fill it up and prevent a vacuum from forming. On one of my chili plants I used a 2L plastic bottle with such a cap for well over a year and when I re-potted it the roots had formed an incredibly thick patch around the ceramic cone.

A word of advice on automatic watering. If it is indoors you should always consider what happens in case of a system failure.
Unless you can ensure that a catastrophic water leak can drain off never attach an automatic watering system to your tap or other large source of water.

There are systems like the one I mentioned above that can also work with a reservoir (e.g. a bucket you fill regularly) so you know the maximum amount of water
that can possibly spill. Accordingly you can place your plants into a tray that holds more water than your reservoir and have confidence that you won't come home to a ruined floor or worse.
How long did the clay bottle adapter on the 2L bottle last between fill ups? I like the idea of a simple system (less stuff to fail) but I need something to keep watering for 20 or more days

I hadn't thought about considering a failure of the system. Luckily for me, my grow light set up is about 3' from my sump pump. Even if the Tupperware bins fill up it shouldn't flood my basement.

I found this on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Claber-8053-4-Pro ... ng+devices

Comes with a warranty, can water for up to 40 days, lots of plants, gravity fed, runs on a battery. If it somehow leaks all the water out at once, the tupperware bins should be able to contain all the water. I'm thinking if I go with this one, I can get it set up soon and use the rest of november/december to figure out the settings. If i have to use one of the programs that uses water sooner than I'll return I can always have my neighbor check it out and fill up the tank. I'll probably have him stop by a couple times anyway to check on the house/the plants whether i do automatic watering or not.

In related news, i'm going to be in South Korea the beginning of January. I've been there a few times and there's plenty I want to see again, but I wouldn't mind checking out some other stuff. I know there's a lot of bamboo stuff like a museum and tourist park in a place called Damyang, but the only way I could get there is a rental car, and my international driver's liscence is expired. Most of my wife's family is in Seoul and Daegu so i'll be kind of far away unless I want to spend 6 hours on a bus (i don't). If I can swing it i'll take a ton of pictures. Anywhere else i should check out?
stevelau1911
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by stevelau1911 »

One interesting plant to try growing if you have a nice grow light is the amorphophallus titanum which I've struggled to grow so far, but I'm starting all over with lots of new seeds. It takes many years to flower, but when it does it is supposesd to be the largest flower in the world, and have a very pleasant smell.

Here's what I'm talking about. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amorphophallus- ... 4adfab5a24
Nicholas
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Re: Overwintering indoors with a big light

Post by Nicholas »

stevelau1911 wrote: It takes many years to flower, but when it does it is supposed to be the largest flower in the world, and have a very pleasant smell.
I hope you meant that ironically ;-), unless you enjoy the smell of decomposing flesh.
Rufledt wrote: How long did the clay bottle adapter on the 2L bottle last between fill ups?
If I recall correctly several weeks but it really depends on the size of the plant and its pot. You can always use more than one watering bottle per pot.
The ceramic cones are not ideal for plants that need very dry soil as some moisture always diffuses out into the soil.

My experiences with automatic watering have been that it is very easy to over-water. Sensor based approaches where each drip has a sensor are preferable but they are costly and you need to also consider that probes can fail. I liked the ceramic cone based approach because there are no electronics involved, even the ceramic dripper system although their valves can also fail.

Water and electronics don't really like each other which is why good systems should have proper seals or extensible probes (something with a lead so you can have the sensor unit out of harms way). If you use something with measuring devices make sure that they are easily replaceable and of a good build quality.

I've been using an automatic drip system (without sensors, just a timer) on my parent's terrace for years now and one piece of advice I can give you is that
you should allow water to drain. Using coasters with a timed dripping system basically begs for plants standing in water most of the time. I totally abandoned coasters and the excess water drains off like the rain. Indoors one option would be to prop up the plant enough so it never is submerged in the water that collects in the coaster.

I have no experience with the ceramic cones that are self watering (have a water "probe" ) but maybe they can achieve what you want without any electronics.
All you need is a big bucked of water and the probes submerged deep enough so that using up most of the reservoir does not cause them to be above the water line.

You could also build your own gravity fed watering system by using a regular timer/probe system and a reservoir to which you attach a tap handle. This might be an option if you already have
a water timer for your garden.

Whichever option you choose it is a good idea to get it set up soon for fine-tuning and monitoring.
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